Traction Control Systems

[fordsrule]

I was wanting to hear your opinions on this subject. I was looking at the Davis 500SL Traction Control System. Do they really give a big advantage? What are the benefits & downsides of running traction control? Thanks.

[pinionangle]

Take your $5000 and spend it on tires, fuel and entry fees.

[ScottyRocket]

You could rent a lot of track time for that kind of money.

Knowlege about your car, driver and engine will get you farther.

It won't fix basic handling problems or driver problems. It may help smooth out the torque curve of the engine, but a simple cam change could do that.

There is Engine HP/Torque(straightaway speed), Chassis HP(corner speed) and driver HP(adjusting to the conditions).... get these all running good and you'll run good. Period.

[Rocket Bonehead]

I was wanting to hear your opinions on this subject. I was looking at the Davis 500SL Traction Control System. Do they really give a big advantage? What are the benefits & downsides of running traction control? Thanks.



TC won't make an average driver a dominate driver, BUT it will make that average driver a lot more consistent.


TC also cannot make a 10th place car a feature winner, BUT it could make a top 5 car a feature winner.



The bottom line is this; if you think you can sleep at night knowing you won races, or had good finishes, as a result of using TC, then I'd say go for it. You'll probably be more successful (in certain conditions) and get better finishes.


That said, MY PERSONAL OPINION IS THIS: I COULD NOT, AND WOULD NOT work or help ANYONE that I knew was using it. Personally, I could not live with myself for doing so, and I know for certain that I could NOT sleep at night knowing that we had to use that to win races.


My team has been beaten by it. Actually, we've been beaten by it quite a few times. There ARE tell-tale signs that a guy can look for or pick up that will give away who is running it and who is not. Ask around and you may find that information, but I am not going to give it out.


I am not making any judgements on anyone asking or researching info on TC. I am just stating my opinion on the matter. Nothing more. BUT, as you can probably tell, I don't have much respect for guys who do use it.



RB

[perfconn]

If traction control is legal like in Southern All Stars then spend your money, but be careful.Their is some t/c that will get you hurt if they fail.The kind that apply the rear brakes is very dangerous, if you lose a wheel sensor you will tear the wall down.And if its not really slick your wasting your time and money.

[LM23]

Sore subject with me as I have been on the accused end of this for alot of seasons here locally. My car is welcome to be checked for TC by anyone at anytime. I put my effort in a good setup, good preperation, good parts, and a good driver.

One of our local drivers who still cannot seem handle that left turn very well at the end of the straight after 10 seasons in a late model hinted around one night about us having TC. I told him save his $$$, bring the car to my shop and I would get him setup in the right direction for alot less than Davis charges for their cheater box. Pinion - I think you know who I mean too.

So my opinion -- learn to setup your car right and prepare your car right and do not need it.

[fordsrule]

Thanks for all the responses. We've won alot of races this year without it, but I was wanting to get even faster. I'm pretty sure of one cars we race against has it already. I am like Rocket Bonehead, it makes me feel good to beat them without it. At my track you can run almost anything legally. The rules are on a weekly (sometimes daily) basis!! Thanks again for all the reply's.

[claybuster]

While were on the subject is there anything that is made to detect it other than accusations and pulling componants and sending them in?

[billetbirdcage]

I'm the same way as RB, if it is legal and you have plenty of money or have everything else you need then why not.

BUT, I have serious doubts to whether or not the Davis units actually gain time on the track. I have done testing with a driver that is 5-8 average in tourings series (so your basic better then average driver but no Bloomquist).

Here are the lap times (Taken with a in-car timer -- not stopwatch) all test were a TM5000SL


With T/C (one other car on track and caught 3 times so 3 laps are higher then should be, can't say which laps for sure so I'm asumming the slowest laps.

19.81
19.78
19.92
20.00
20.08
20.35
20.09
19.79
19.65
20.24
20.29

Pulled in and unpluged took 1 minute and 30 seconds and back on track to continue laps

Without T/C (alone on track)
20.18
20.03
19.84
19.82


Without T/C but switched boxes to retard timing 6 degrees (made car lazy in middle of corner and became tight)
20.48
20.17
20.42

If you average the laps and throw out the 3 laps in question (with T/C and lap car) and the fastest lap in each session.

The average is
T/C = 19.92
without = 19.98

Didn't recalculate the numbers just going of the averages I have scribbled down. I'm have a time decifering my own notes. To me the difference is so small that it is hard to say it really helped and more testing would be required to get a more accurate data.

Make your own decision from this, this is a completely unbiased tests (I don't sell them or get adverstising from them -- like a magazine).

Having tested other systems with actual way of monitering wheel speeds, they will make a bigger difference but are unreliable and sometimes dangerous as Perfconn pointed out.

I am one of the few that will openly talk about it, as I don't have anything to hide. I just think that since it is almost impossable to police and will get harder to find as techology gets better, the only solution to me is legalize it and the cost will come down to a couple hundred dollars and everyone can have it and that means NO MORE EXCUSSES and everyone on a level playing field.

Just my opinion!!!! Take it for what its worth!!!

I should add the driver said he could fell it working, but after this test desided his money was better spend somewhere else.

[billetbirdcage]

"Second place finisher at Pepsi USA Nationals disqualified for electronic traction control use"

This is the first time I have heard of anyone actually getting caught (absolutley caught not rumors or had extra wiring on car but "CAUGHT"

Link: http://www.imca.com/newsroom.php?newsid=426\


Just think this could be YOU!!

[racer68]

What gets me is why people don't want to challenge themselves to be better drivers or change setups to meet changing track conditions. I mean I thought the main goal of people racing was to have fun and try your best to break even at the end of the year (almost never :) ). I know it's different for the people that make a living racing, but for the weekend racer why not try to get better? It would be cheaper just to pull off a plug wire. At least if you win that way you don't have to thank the makers of the TC for the win. Oh well if you can afford it, get it, but always wonder if you could have won without it.

[fordsrule]

Thanks Billet! That's what I was looking for, cold hard facts. Thanks for sharing this with us. Also, thanks to RB & everyone else for replying. I'll just keep on trying to get faster by working on the handling & engine, just like I've been doing.

[Rocket Bonehead]

That is some good info from Billet. I haven't checked out that link yet, but if someone was caught, that would be the first I have heard of it too. McDowell was fined a few years ago with the UDTRA for having the infamous "purple wire" hanging out of his box, but he didn't have a unit attached to it. He did admit to having tested with it and ran an SAS race with it.


There was an article in Dirt Late Model mag here a while back that covered a test session on one of the Davis units (with Davis there assisting). They tried it on a number of different drivers. It was a good read and gave some good info (as good as an article covering a 'tech' item could). I don't remember which issue, but I am sure if you contacted DLM mag, they would have that info.



If you're looking for ways to learn and improve, take some of that money and go to a Race Wise school. That class is well worth the money in my opinion, whether you are a rookie or veteran alike. It is always nice to be able to get a 'refresher' or some instruction on how things work.



RB

[billetbirdcage]

While I do respect the writers of that magazine and I didn't ask if they fudged those numbers (I probably could have gotten a trueful answer if I asked) but You have to remember that davis does spend money on advertising with them. So I won't take results for truth unless I'm there and can over see the whole thing done.

Obviously some tracks will gain more then others, I wish I could have done more testing but without buying one (that one was borrowed) I just didn't have enough time to get multiple tests with different drivers and tracks. But it told me it wasn't as big of an advantage as they would lead you to believe.

If we get out ran and the others have it, I don't attibute it to them having it they were just better that night and leave it at that (unless it was half a car length or less, then I'll B$tch like H$ll. :-D

[Raider1]

It's good to see one caught, but that unit looks pretty big compared to the new stuff.

It is neat the IMCA put a picture of it on the web site. Nascar was making the teams run the N box with the Lexan cover on the bottom. you could see this board with the lexan cover.

[KTM-Lew]

This is what I get when I clcik the link?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1064 - You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '\\' at line 1

SELECT * FROM `News` WHERE NewsID=426\\

[Chris Steele]

Go to the top of the page and click on NEWS. The very first events NEWS has it in the head lines. It done me the same way when I went to it.

[KTM-Lew]

Got it! Thanks Chris!

[Peoria#75fan]

If you enlarge the pic it has 2005 on it. That is not a high buck team so I would guess they did not send the unit to the right people to get it cheated up. IMCA could tell it had been tampered with when they pulled it.

This could play out for a while.

[wheel spinner]

Don,t think traction control is going away. When it gets cheaper,more effective, or easier to hide you will see (or hear) more of it. Soon it will be a part of every new car sold just like ABS. For racing it could be put in a ignition box just like the one you use now as a small price option.
Do you think MSD might make one?
I used davis's patent number (6577944) from the picture in the IMCA article to read up on it. http://www.imca.com/newsroom.php?newsid=426
What was interesting was who cited this patent. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7050899.html
There are many patents relating to traction control. Most of them by the big car companies. Someday it won't be whether to have it but rather which one to have.
I used to go by the name TractionMaster on another board before (and after)I heard about Davis and his products. "Traction Master" was the name of a project that was shelved when I worked at MSD in the late 80's.
Wheelspinner is not as conceited (the name).
As for the "slew rate revlimiter" MSD sold these back then, mostly for marine use and statium raceing trucks. They were never in the catalog.

[Right_Rear]

Interesting photo - - thanks for the link. For all the money they get for that thing, one might think it would be an ASIC (application-specific integrated circuit), rather than a collection of standard ICs that he had to pot over as a first defense against reverse-engineering. At least he could've used surface-mount rather than through-hole technology. That would make it much smaller, and if done right, more robust.

That story about McDowell make me chuckle. I recall that a few weeks after that purple wire incident, Dale happened to "slip in some oil" at a big race in Wisconsin. That allowed Eckert to get under him for the win. Seems there was a significant extra purse for the winner of several of a series of races. Also seems Eckert was the only guy eligible to win the extra purse at the time . . .

Various people snickered "Gee, if he'd had his TC working, maybe he wouldn't have slipped in the oil."