Square tube headers

[profab00]

Was told these are supposed to gain huge amounts of horsepower with these type headers.....I could understand a torque gain but horsepower? Supposedly gained because the air doesn't swirl down the tube but runs straight? Any of you engine guru's care to comment?

[bizkit]

wow I feel like 2goffy doing a search and giving results....Not good according to the engine gurus, and with our typical commentary

http://www.dirtracingforum.com/showthread.php?t=2063&highlight=square+tube+headers

[dfrace]

Stormpay or whatever the name of the week is has banned them for 2008.

[profab00]

Thanks Biz, read all the replys and the go to threads but I still haven't heard anyone who has had these on a dyno to compare. All of these replys are opinions without a dyno to confirm. This guy I was talking to actually claimed a dyno proved his point of more horsepower. I guess I don't believe him or else I wouldn't be on here soliciting opinions because it goes against common sense.........but then so does some other things on my car:-D. I would like for Bill or Perfconn to comment if they actually have dynoed a set of these square tube headers.

[bizkit]

I can tell you for fact perfconn hasn't. If you can get a set, we should have another engine ready to dyno in a couple weeks, I'm sure he wouldn't mind confirming your believes...I know neither of them will buy a set to try, because in theory it doesn't make since they should work to them

[perfconn]

I still say when they make square exhaust valves I'll try square tube headers.

[LM23]

I still say when they make square exhaust valves I'll try square tube headers.


I am working on the square valves for you right now - LOL

[perfconn]

Be sure to make the square valves with square stems so they won't turn and make me a set of square tube headers to go with them Bill.

[2dumb2kwit]

wow I feel like 2goffy doing a search and giving results....Not good according to the engine gurus, and with our typical commentary

http://www.dirtracingforum.com/showthread.php?t=2063&highlight=square+tube+headers

I'm not sure if that was an insult or a complement.LOL

[LM23]

Be sure to make the square valves with square stems so they won't turn and make me a set of square tube headers to go with them Bill.

It is up to you to come up with the heads with the square seats and guides.

[2dumb2kwit]

It is up to you to come up with the heads with the square seats and guides.

You mean you can't put a square peg in a round hole??? LOL

[perfconn]

Damn,I'm not used to all this work just to say I got square headers.

[LM23]

You mean you can't put a square peg in a round hole??? LOL

Did once, it wasn't too bad. Dang - now I am talking like Pinion, and I ain't seen him in about a year.

[2dumb2kwit]

Did once, it wasn't too bad. Dang - now I am talking like Pinion, and I ain't seen him in about a year.

You're acting like pinion, biz is acting like me,.......what's the world coming to???

[dfrace]

You guys are so square

[pinionangle]

Im anything but square.....If I keep eating I may become egg shaped.

[2dumb2kwit]

So, does the size of the square tubes depend on the CUBEic inches???

[LM23]

So, does the size of the square tubes depend on the CUBEic inches???

Now you are getting into some math that involves the angle of the dangle.

[billetbirdcage]

Not really an answer but some views from some well respected engine builders

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5060

[2dumb2kwit]

Not really an answer but some views from some well respected engine builders

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5060


The world is going nuts,.......I finally beat billet to one!!!

02-26-2008, 02:57 PM
2dumb2kwit
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NC.
Posts: 943




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not smart enough to have thoughts on that, but here's a link to some guys that are.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5060

[dfrace]

So, does the size of the square tubes depend on the CUBEic inches???

There is definitely gonna be some cubic dollar math here eventually.

[2dumb2kwit]

Now you are getting into some math that involves the angle of the dangle.

I'm ready,....look what I learned how to do.
inch³

[2dumb2kwit]

oow, oow, oow,....and I can do this...πr²!!

Oh, and I can say a circle is 360°!

[2dumb2kwit]

I even learned how to type...

I ♥ my racecar!

Biz, join the ♣!

I ♠ my woman!

[bizkit]

You need to go take your riddlin, your getting a little out of hand again

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm sorry, uncle bizkit™.

[TeamTan]

the square headers are made here in mn. alot of the top mod guys around here are running them.. supposedly the exhaust gases dont swirl and can flow through better. one thing that a top mod racer told me was that there are tons of different collectors available for them and that he changes that between heat and feature to change the powerband.

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

And I thought the cup guys were on top of there game.Bill

[perfconn]

Yea,you would think the Cup guys that spend millions of dollars on engine R&D would try something before a backyard engine builder.Or then again maybe they have and you guys are wasting your time and money on the trick of the week.

[IDOXLR8]

We tried a flat tube, right side header:shock:....it made the engine kind of flat.:-D

[Dr. Flex]

Yea,you would think the Cup guys that spend millions of dollars on engine R&D would try something before a backyard engine builder.Or then again maybe they have and you guys are wasting your time and money on the trick of the week.

The so called mystery headers (square tube) are built in MN. He worked with a Cup car many years ago with the square tube headers and was quickly dropped as these headers created too much HP. He still builds the square tubes and there are several on Modifieds & Late Models in the WISSOTA area. They are very expensive and custom built for the car/engine. Yes, they are square tubes built from several hundred small pieces of flat steel plate welded together. Just picture several thousand Dominoes being used to make a round tube with no restrictions!

Yes, the headers do unleash the HP. To do this, the exhaust gas needs to be removed from the engine as quickly and efficiently as possible. The square tubes do this by not allowing the gases to swirl. The swirling of these gases takes more time to exit the header than does a same sized header with square tubes. Watch the water drain out of your sink and you will see it swirl. If you attached a square drain to your sink you will then see the water fall straight through and much faster.

How strong are they? I've have never seen one wear out. One car in particular, has had the headers on for three seasons.

I hope this has helped you guys a little.

[perfconn]

He worked with a Cup car many years ago with the square tube headers and was quickly dropped as these headers created too much HP
You know everyone believes that.

[dfrace]

and was quickly dropped as these headers created too much HP

Do you mean something other than "horsepower" when you say "HP"?


I call shenanigans.

[2dumb2kwit]

..."Making too much hp".....isn't that like making too much money???LOL

[perfconn]

No its more like "trying to pull the wool over somebodys eyes"

[LM23]

I was waiting to see what everyone would say about that. I find it not only outrageous, but in a way funny.

Dr. Flex, this board may not have many members, but you will find out that we probably have some of the most experienced and some of the best in our own specialties such as setups, powertrains, fabrication and even a couple that know some of the best strip clubs in town. This is not intended to be an insult, but you are gonna find it tough to BS us guys on this board.

[bizkit]

I'm gonna build some octagon headers


Can't BS the BS'ers

[2dumb2kwit]

and even a couple that know some of the best strip clubs in town.

Now thats funny! LMAO

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm gonna build some octagon headers




BIZKIT TUBES .....like pigs in a blanket, only better!

[bizkit]

That's a nice marketing slogan...Now all I gotta do is become a better fabricator and learn how to build headers, sounds easy enough...LOL

[LM23]

I got some 6 sided octagon tubing I took on trade for a KIA motor. Maybe we work something out bro.

[claybuster]

and even a couple that know some of the best strip clubs in town.......

"God Bless America and Mr.Hines".......pinionangle

[pinionangle]

Tee_hee you guys are the best......

[bizkit]

Pinion do you still have the rolodex with all those strip clubs, are did you have to give it up, when the ring went on?

[perfconn]

Rolodex is one of them high priced watches that people with square headers wear ain't it ?

[pinionangle]

Well i do BUT I cant use it like I use too...

The thing is she wants to go and well, i'd rather go with the boys. :mad:

[fez]

I have a set of these headers on my mod. The crazy stuff is in the inside. The square tube I don't think means anything. The back pressure insert is adjustable and there is different inserts. There is alot torque in these headers. The power band is very wide. Awesome headers I think.

[2dumb2kwit]

I have a set of these headers on my mod. The crazy stuff is in the inside. The square tube I don't think means anything. The back pressure insert is adjustable and there is different inserts. There is alot torque in these headers. The power band is very wide. Awesome headers I think.

Dang, don't stop now! How much torque? Have you had them on a dyno? How expensive are they? Details, man, details!

[2dumb2kwit]

I have a set of these headers on my mod. The crazy stuff is in the inside. The square tube I don't think means anything. The back pressure insert is adjustable and there is different inserts. There is alot torque in these headers. The power band is very wide. Awesome headers I think.

I'm not trying to step on any toes, but are you sure that the headers didn't just help mask a less than perfect cam choice?

[perfconn]

There is alot torque in these headers. The power band is very wide.
Compared to what.Did you do back to back tests on the dyno or race track ? There is so much BS in the racing world that they would have you believe that with the 4-7 firing order swap and square tube headers that you could run zero lap times.

[claybuster]

Reminds me of the 5.0 mustang days, I had every bolt on I could afford. Sounded good, might have cut a couple tenths off E.T. but 50 and 100 dollared me to death.

[fez]

I have had these on a dyno. I will keep the numbers to myself. I can tell you that when geared right and the headers are adjusted right. they are hard to beat on starts and in traffic. Top end is a little scarifice on hp but the torque numbers at bottom end are really good.

[perfconn]

If the dyno numbers are so good why don't you want to say what they were.Thats like some kid saying I know the answer to that question but I'm not telling you.

[profab00]

Okay, after refusing to comment on some of the posts that made me feel like a complete dumbass, why wouldn't adjustable round tubes work just as well? I'm not worried about torque on the low end as much as top end horsepower. After all, I'm on 8 " rubber on dry slick.

[perfconn]

Adjustable round tubes won't work as well because they will work better.None of the dudes hyping the square tubes will support them with facts just BS.

[LM23]

Lets see here, we now have been told they make more power than a Cup car can handle and dyno numbers are secret. Now if I could sell those magnets for the fuel line that gets a car better mileage.

[Dr. Flex]

I was waiting to see what everyone would say about that. I find it not only outrageous, but in a way funny.

Dr. Flex, this board may not have many members, but you will find out that we probably have some of the most experienced and some of the best in our own specialties such as setups, powertrains, fabrication and even a couple that know some of the best strip clubs in town. This is not intended to be an insult, but you are gonna find it tough to BS us guys on this board.

No insult taken LM23 and no BS given. I'll get some pictures taken of these headers this season, when ever it decides to stop snowing, and post them here or I'll email them to you. So how many strip clubs you talking about??

[2dumb2kwit]

No insult taken LM23 and no BS given. I'll get some pictures taken of these headers this season, when ever it decides to stop snowing, and post them here or I'll email them to you. So how many strip clubs you talking about??

If you can show us dyno sheets, square tube vs normal headers, I'll talk pinion into sending a copy of his "strip club handbook"!!! LOL

[Dr. Flex]

If you can show us dyno sheets, square tube vs normal headers, I'll talk pinion into sending a copy of his "strip club handbook"!!! LOL


I'll see what I can do. Be about a month or so before we get going up here. The strip club HANDBOOK, LOL!!! That's good!!

[FlatTire]

I've never heard of a strip club handbook but I've heard of a stripclub handjob! :D

Next time youre in Dallas DR Flex I've got a real special girl just for you, call 469-939-2587 and ask for Rya. 120lb Brazilian spinner! Just catch her when she's taken her Xanax/Ecstasy/Stoli raspberry vodka cocktail, you won't be able to stand her otherwise.

[Kromulous]

All the square tube headers are going to do is create small low pressure areas in the corners. I can see it being possable because air shear on a surface (metal) versus the air shear on air is alot lower.

I've seen things desgined where the use low pressure air, to manipulate high speed air with the same reason in mind. I'll try to post some examples if i can find anything not trade related.

Just thinkin out loud, Krom.

[Dr. Flex]

All the square tube headers are going to do is create small low pressure areas in the corners. I can see it being possable because air shear on a surface (metal) versus the air shear on air is alot lower.

I've seen things desgined where the use low pressure air, to manipulate high speed air with the same reason in mind. I'll try to post some examples if i can find anything not trade related.

Just thinkin out loud, Krom.


You're on the right track. Try this link; http://freepatentsonline.com/6799423.html (http://freepatentsonline.com/6799423.html)

The square tube headers are patented and they do work.

[perfconn]

Sure they do and the tooth fairy is real.Post some dyno camparison numbers or give it up.

[LM23]

Better yet send me a set and I will have then comparison dyno'd using my motor that my son runs weekly in his modified against the Schoenfelds we use as well as the mandatory Custom Kraft mufflers we must use. We will also do an on track/race comparison to get even more real world results and opinions.

They need to be STD Chevy bolt pattern, large port and fit a Shyrock Chevelle front end.

The majority of the people on this board know me and will tell you that any results and #'s I get as well as any opinion(s) formed will be honest.

If you are interested I will provide you with an address to ship to.

Bill

[Egoracing44]

I have a PERFECT example of DR Flex's Idea about a square drain! A place where I worked made a square plate drain in the bottom of a 5000 gallon tank. (the reason it was square was the trough under it was square and it sat almost on top of the drain trough) When you opened the gate to let the water out 2 things happened, First the flow of water would spray OUT from every flat side, the drain was 6X6 and the floor trough was 8 inches wide. The end of the drain was less than 2 inches from the trough but the water still sprayed out of the drain all over the floor. Second about as soon as you it pulled the drain it also created surface tension in the corners and a VERY interesting thing happened, the water started to swirl out of the drain and would run out of the center of the drain only in a round column. The corners of the drain would stop flowing and the water would only drip from the corners. A 6x6 drain ended up flowing the same capacity as about a 3.5 inch round drain. As a matter of fact we put a 4 inch drain in to stop the outside spray, the tank drained in a little more than 1/2 the time.

Fluid or gas will not swirl in a round tube, it will swirl around the valve. The drain example is a HORRIBLE way to explain it because water under pressure will NOT swirl going down the drain or through a pipe. It rushes straight out.

Surface attention applies to ANY element, Gas, Fluid, or solids. A square 1 inch X 1 inch tube has MUCH more surface area for drag on the flow than a round tube.

[perfconn]

We all have old wives tales and experience ingrained in our minds and sometimes are not open to suggestions of better ways but thats what the neat thing is about dyno tests.Real world tests can easily prove a point instead of saying stuff like "they have a patent so they must work" or "my dyno results are secret."

[Egoracing44]

We all have old wives tales and experience ingrained in our minds and sometimes are not open to suggestions of better ways but thats what the neat thing is about dyno tests.Real world tests can easily prove a point instead of saying stuff like "they have a patent so they must work" or "my dyno results are secret."

Very true. I liked the more power than they could use, in Nascar. These are the same people who had to have rules made against Turbos, Blowers and NOS. I have NEVER seen any Nascar rules banning headers. If they were that good and made all of that power in a Nascar application EVERY restrictor plate engine would be running them. Why waste MILLIONS of $$ on R&D for a cam/valve spring package when all they needed to do was bolt on square tube headers.

[perfconn]

AMEN Brother !!!!!

[Kromulous]

I have a PERFECT example of DR Flex's Idea about a square drain! A place where I worked made a square plate drain in the bottom of a 5000 gallon tank. (the reason it was square was the trough under it was square and it sat almost on top of the drain trough) When you opened the gate to let the water out 2 things happened, First the flow of water would spray OUT from every flat side, the drain was 6X6 and the floor trough was 8 inches wide. The end of the drain was less than 2 inches from the trough but the water still sprayed out of the drain all over the floor. Second about as soon as you it pulled the drain it also created surface tension in the corners and a VERY interesting thing happened, the water started to swirl out of the drain and would run out of the center of the drain only in a round column. The corners of the drain would stop flowing and the water would only drip from the corners. A 6x6 drain ended up flowing the same capacity as about a 3.5 inch round drain. As a matter of fact we put a 4 inch drain in to stop the outside spray, the tank drained in a little more than 1/2 the time.

Fluid or gas will not swirl in a round tube, it will swirl around the valve. The drain example is a HORRIBLE way to explain it because water under pressure will NOT swirl going down the drain or through a pipe. It rushes straight out.

Surface attention applies to ANY element, Gas, Fluid, or solids. A square 1 inch X 1 inch tube has MUCH more surface area for drag on the flow than a round tube.

Thats cool about the corners, exactley what i was thinking. Even more interesting was you decreased the size and went to a round tube and it drained faster. That pretty much debunks the square tube headers, not that they were ever believed anyway.

Unless there is someone unknown info. I cant put any stock into them, fun to think about thou.

My idea would be to make some like the step headers we have now days, and add more steps. Along with increasing size every 8 inches or so, add a turbulator of some sort to break some surface tension. I think if done right, it would work, would it be worth it is another question.

Another set of 3k headers that net 5hp? not.

Krom.

[2dumb2kwit]

What about the thermal dynamics involved, with more surface area to cool the exhaust gasses, with square tubes?(especially in the corners)

[perfconn]

I don't think cooling the exhaust gases is worth anything.Getting them out of the engine is what works and the piston is very efficient at doing that.Besides everybody knows corners slow you down on a round track.Sorry I couldn't resist.

[billetbirdcage]

What about the thermal dynamics involved, with more surface area to cool the exhaust gasses, with square tubes?(especially in the corners)

If the square tube header (surface area) cools the exhaust more then a round tube then the velocity of the air will be lower (hot air will have a higher velocity) and the header would have less scavaging from a velocity stand point.

Keep in mind, that just because you put a certain set of headers on and gain 20# of torque or 20 HP that doesn't mean that those headers are worth 20 more then the set removed on every engine. One set of headers may have less or more scavaging effect which may help that perticular engine due to the exhaust port or camshaft selection. Adding a header that produces more scavaging may help a engine that has a weak exhaust port or too short of exhaust duration, but putting that same header on a engine with the correct exhaust port/cam timing may over scavage the intake charge during valve overlap and reduce power by drawing too much of the intake charge out the tail pipe.

To say one type of header is better or worth X HP is kind of pointless. All styles of headers would need to have the cam, timing, fuel ratio altered to optimize the engine then go back and look at over all power. You would need to speed countless hours on the dyno to say that square tubes are better on just dynoing on one engine (goes for all header styles not just square).

That's my opinion!

I keep an open mind on things, but I would be completely surprised if the square tube headers (when tested properly) are worth any more power then a round tube header. I'm not saying that you might not be able to throw a set on a mod and see some gains in certain areas on certain engines, but on a proven and tested combo I would have serious doubts.

[perfconn]

Billet,
I would be surprised if you could ever optimize an engine with square tube headers to run as good as an engine with a set of optimized round tubes.My opionion and I'm sticking to it until dyno sheets prove I'm not right.

[2dumb2kwit]

If the square tube header (surface area) cools the exhaust more then a round tube then the velocity of the air will be lower (hot air will have a higher velocity) and the header would have less scavaging from a velocity stand point.

I was thinking of issues with greater temperature variations at any given cross section of tube, I'm just not smart enuff to know the details!!LOL

[billetbirdcage]

Terry: I'd agree with that, I was just pointing out unless you optimized both you can't say one was better then the other. I was saying that maybe the round header they removed where not even close to what the engine wanted and that why the square tube one made more power. (luck!)

Example: Flex said he made better power with square tubes. That may be the case for his perticular engine combo, but was the round tube he replaced even close to what he needed? Kind of like having a 5000 RPM 289 Cid engine and using a peice of junk 650 carb and then replacing with a 1000 CFM carb that was really good and saying the power came from the extra CFM not that the 650 was a complete pile of junk. Putting a good 650 carb on would have likely made more then the 1000 CFM one.

[2dumb2kwit]

Billet,
I would be surprised if you could ever optimize an engine with square tube headers to run as good as an engine with a set of optimized round tubes.My opionion and I'm sticking to it until dyno sheets prove I'm not right.

I think you have touched on an important point. How many people using sq. tube headers, are going from a $200 set of headers to an "optimized"(read; dyno tuned) set of sq. tube headers?
In that case they probably look pretty good.

[2dumb2kwit]

Dang it billet! How come you and I can be saying the same thing, at the same time, and yours comes out sounding better? LOL
(You're quite the analogist!)

[perfconn]

Just to put this dead horse to rest.
In all material transfer lines,whether it be gas,liquid or whatever,they always use round tubes. Example,gas lines,water lines,steam lines,sewer lines or whatever,they are always round.
Now I know that in the history of engineering not everone is a free thinker and just do stuff the same old way,but surely at some point in engineering there was an exceptionally bright student that would have realized square tubes would transfer material better.
Now we find out that the exceptionally bright person is actually an open wheel modified racer and the rest of the engineering world is wrong.
I'm sure production of lines is comparable since you could make d.o.m. pipes or extraction molding of plastic lines in square as cheap as round.
Go figure.

[2dumb2kwit]

Dang it billet! How come you and I can be saying the same thing, at the same time, and yours comes out sounding better? LOL
(You're quite the analogist!)

Oh,.....sorry 'bout that bizkit. Here ya go.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Analogist \A*nal"o*gist\, n.
One who reasons from analogy, or represent, by analogy.

I didn't want you getting of track, because it started with A_N_A_L!

Speaking of which, and bizkit...
Perfconn, you left out azzholes! LMAO!

[perfconn]

Yep,but man didn't create azzholes,even though they are round.
Ever wonder why the fuel lines and brake lines aren't square ?

[bizkit]

Oh,.....sorry 'bout that bizkit. Here ya go.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Analogist \A*nal"o*gist\, n.
One who reasons from analogy, or represent, by analogy.

I didn't want you getting of track, because it started with A_N_A_L!

Speaking of which, and bizkit...
Perfconn, you left out azzholes! LMAO!

Dude you've got to quit hitting the square hole

[2dumb2kwit]

Dude you've got to quit hitting the square hole

Hey,...not to change the subject, on ya biz,... How about a carb. with square holes??? LOL

[bizkit]

To square for me...Be too damn hard keeping the corners clean..lol

[billetbirdcage]

A note to Dr Flex:

While I don't agree with you (I do keep an open mind though), don't take this as bashing from me or anyone else. Reading text or posts can be interpreted many ways, but I would assume most of these are just disagreeing with you and not bashing on you.

No matter who's right or wrong, something can usually be learned from a discussion or arguement and that's the point of all this, isn't it?

I just wanted to point that out before you got the wrong idea!

[pinionangle]

Hi fellas.

[2dumb2kwit]

Hi fellas.

Hey sunshine! ☼

[claybuster]

So glad ya'll aren't a square group of guys :) This is to fun.

[wilder11354]

Hmmm if my memory serves me correct....didn't ford have carbs with square/variable venturi throttle plates in late 70's early 80's? So square carbs, square headrs.... if it works....use it. Ford gave up on those carbs after a year or two.

[2dumb2kwit]

Shucks, I can't even get square dancing right.

[billetbirdcage]

Hmmm if my memory serves me correct....didn't ford have carbs with square/variable venturi throttle plates in late 70's early 80's? So square carbs, square headrs.... if it works....use it. Ford gave up on those carbs after a year or two.

I forgot about those, what a pile of dung those were.

They still had round throttle blades though, but the upper part (venturi) was basically square and worked on throttle vacumn to adjust the venturi size. I don't think they worked all that bad, but always had problems with them and weren't very dependable.

[2dumb2kwit]

Don't forget about these!
http://www.predatorcarb.com/performance/carburetor.html

[WestlingRacing]

Allways wondered about those? Anyone ever really try one on a Dirt Latemodel?

[perfconn]

Not on circle track but they sure were junk on the drag strip.

[Dr. Flex]

A note to Dr Flex:

While I don't agree with you (I do keep an open mind though), don't take this as bashing from me or anyone else. Reading text or posts can be interpreted many ways, but I would assume most of these are just disagreeing with you and not bashing on you.

No matter who's right or wrong, something can usually be learned from a discussion or arguement and that's the point of all this, isn't it?

I just wanted to point that out before you got the wrong idea!


There is nothing wrong with disagreements of any kind as this is what keeps people alive and functioning and a healthy way of life. I've had the square tube header discussions before and it took the same direction as this one. If this forum were nothing but a bunch of exhaust scientists, all of us would have been laughed off the computer.

Exhaust headers is a science. The ultimate goal is scavenging the exhaust from the cylinder as quickly as possible so as not to interfere with the on coming fuel/air mixture. It doesn't matter what kind or make of headers you use unless the headers have been matched perfectly to each cylinder in the engine. Timing, cam grind and a number of other variables need to be considered to make excellent headers. As was said by someone earlier, replacing a set of headers by another brand could raise HP. A different set could increase HP more or even less without doing anything to the engine. It all depends on the design of the header, tube lengths, collector lengths and how well these all match to what the engine actually needs. It doesn't matter at all what shape the tubes come in, square, round or triangular or the length. It does matter how well everything in the engine performs at a specific time to make the best use of the header system.

I hope any of my comments haven't irratated anyone as that was not my intention. I hope it did make some of you think. I have to admit that Dave Piekarski, inventor, designer and manufacturer of the square tube headers, has found a way to make money. He understands the exhaust theory and what the headers need to do for that engine. At roughly $3000 per pair he probably doesn't sell a lot but, he is always busy. If anyone wants a pair he also needs the engine so he can design the headers to work for the engine.

Someone mentioned patents and just because you have one doesn't mean it's perfect. All a patent does is protect your idea and process for dealing with a known condition. I also own a patent and it protects my business from anyone else using my idea. Even though the materials I use have been around for several decades, the process in which they're used are detrimental to the products I manufacture. Some people like them and some don't...something like the square tube headers.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts and good luck to you all this season!

Gene
www.hiperflex.net

[perfconn]

I also own a patent and it protects my business from anyone else using my idea.

A patent doesn't keep anyone from using your idea.It keeps them from marketing your idea.Anyone can copy a patented item for their own use but they can't sell that item.I have copied several patented pieces of machinery for use in our plant when I was in the printing industry.

[2dumb2kwit]

I hope any of my comments haven't irratated anyone as that was not my intention. I hope it did make some of you think.
Gene
www.hiperflex.net

Heck, we love a good debate, around here!
As billet said,please don't take our "debating" as bashing. I,as well as many here, enjoy learning from sharing info,or a good debate.
Now, from time to time, you'll see us throw jabs at each other(sometimes we down right abuse each other), but thats just meant as a little fun, among friends! LOL

[2dumb2kwit]

Oh,...and if you want to have a good tech discussion, this is a good place to have it. As LM23 said before, there are some very sharp guys on this board, and for the most part, they are pretty open minded.
(BTW, I'm the token dummy!)

I look forward to arguing with you, soon. LOL

2dumb.

[pinionangle]

And sometimes we just sit here and giggle.



By the way, if no one else has told you....I am the NEXT Tony Stewart just ask me.

[perfconn]

Damn,I thought you were the last Tony Stewart.

[2dumb2kwit]

And sometimes we just sit here and giggle.

Dang it, pinion........We told you to stop sittin' on that feather!
(It's just not manly!)

[profab00]

I seen these square tube headers for the first time yesterday. There are some inherent flaws on the particular set I seen, they were stainless and had a ton of butt welds that had to have weld sticking down into the tube. I am not totally sold on them as they are heavy but on a crate engine the owner claimed 18 horsepower gained (I don't know what header they were comparing to). Might want to make some open their minds up tho.

[perfconn]

Square valves = square headers
Round valves = round headers
Round valves w/ square headers = junk

[2dumb2kwit]

Square valves = square headers
Round valves = round headers
Round valves w/ square headers = junk

So, do you use square intake valves, or round port intakes? LOL
(Sorry Terry, I just had to be a smart arse, and mess with ya!)

[perfconn]

I've always said round intake ports will flow better than square ports.Crower built a round intake port head for some Indy engines that made like 950hp with only 218ci. these numbers may not be exact but round intake ports,round intake valves,round tube headers and round exhaust valves do work.

[2dumb2kwit]

Anyone that is interested in flow, will probably like this.
http://www.darinmorgan.com/wetflow.htm

[claybuster]

Anyone that is interested in flow, will probably like this.
http://www.darinmorgan.com/wetflow.htm

Hadnt seen a set on a pro-stock, you know they will do anything for more HP.