Crate Engine?

[billetbirdcage]

Anybody have any thoughts on GM stopping the sealing bolts availabilty after March? No more rebuilds or even simple repairs?

[MasterSbilt_Racer]

That may keep the cheating down, but Wow! You have to buy a new engine when it gets tired? Crate racing only works in theory.

[claybuster]

Not thrilled at all about it, but hopefully as far as our track maybe we can still have a "track seal". I guess part of the problem is the "repair facilities" have become authorized "modification facilities" and tech is getting way more in depth than what it should be. If that makes sense? Who knows its a new begining. . .

[pinionangle]

Im kinda left spinning....I thought they had a good deal going, you didnt hear of too many folks getting caught up until Gentry.

Either way its going to change things for a lot of folks. I can only hope our new crate class can stay together.

[bizkit]

How pissed are you guys going to be when it cost you $3000+ for a oil pan gasket or a bad intake gasket??

It's a bad deal, and I feel for you fellows that liked the concept. But we as racers will always be our on worst enemy, especially when a engine guy tells us he can get us more and still be legal...what do you do, I know what I usually do, DO IT!!

Sorry for rambling, I know many of you guys will stay on board with the crate deal until its gone are really out of hand...(Just look at me with the supers *GRIN* if supers not out of hand nothing is) I just hope yawl don't sink too much money playing the game. I would be afraid messing with as large as company as GM...There gonna get you in the end, metaphorically speaking..

[profab00]

I think Biz is right as far as GM's involvement, the rich get richer....if you know what I mean. I too would be scared......as a matter of fact, I have been scared all along which is why I didn't jump in from the onset of the class. But the idea is such a good one that has grown to such proportions that maybe something will come of it other than the gloom and doom some believe.

[2dumb2kwit]

There is an asphalt track, not to far away from me, where they have a crate class. I was talking to the track owner, and asked about the "sealed" motors. I liked his thoughts on the matter. He said that he didn't care what kind of bolts or seals it has. If he thinks someone has a hp edge,(he was a racer for many years, before owning a track) He techs the motor himself, and if it isn't right, you're out for the year.

I feel for you guys. Hope it all works out ok.

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

Stan told me yesterday that if G.M. discontinues the bolts he would have them made for Fastrack. talked about twist off with a snap on cap that is a one shot.Either way I don't see what G.M. decides to do affecting the series.Bill

[2dumb2kwit]

metaphorically speaking.. Dang biz, there you go using big words again. If you're gonna use big words, how about give us dumb brothers some warning...................Here, you can use this.

[claybuster]

OK, I am gonna beat this dead horse some more. With those being DQ'd for unauthorized repairs. They had "RM" seal bolts, because they never said they were black market bolts, and they supposedly have a bar code etched in them to trace back to the rebuilder they were registered to. Why is there no follow up to the rebuilder they were issued to?
Now I can say that on one of the bolts on our crate it is rusting like crazy and no way you could see anything on it, but the others they are clean as a whistle.
Also, seems the "Day After" maybe it aint all that bad, but who knows were still waiting on GMs plan for those that have a crate and those that have had them repaired.
OK, I am off my box now.

[2dumb2kwit]

Very good point! If a racer has an engine rebuilt and sealed, by an authorized rebuilder, how do you hold that racer responsible for the work of a shop that you told him to use?

[claybuster]

If a racer has an engine rebuilt and sealed, by an authorized rebuilder, how do you hold that racer responsible for the work of a shop that you told him to use?

I know that I have been approached and guarenteed "X" amount of horsepower when we want it. We did not go that route when we had a issue with ours, we went to the people that were chose by the track.
So "if" there should be a issue come up or they just wanted to hang us, why would the rebuilder not be liable as well.
Now in Gentry's case what we are reading, it was valve angle/width issues, do you think he did that himself? Maybe? I doubt it, it has to be a discovery of some R&D.
Who knows, I am probably way off base as usual.

[Egoracing44]

Gentrys engine was valve seat angles and valve back cut and port size on the head.
Rumor is GM is looking at an exchange for a new engine and even a "rebuilt" engine as an original purchase option for less than the new engines are selling for. Nothing is set in stone though as far as I have found out.

[billetbirdcage]

While I can't repeat what I have found out, it looks like it will all work out except for some minor issues that will need to be addressed!

These small issues are likely to be something like:

Oil leaks: you don't want to have to exchange the engine you have at the exchange price (say 3,000.00) otherwise that is a 3000.00 pan gasket or intake gasket.

From what is rumored to maybe happen, I think it will work out to most racers satisfaction. There were alot of issues brought up with this old system that i had never really thought about and these isssues will likley be fixed with this new system. However it will likely be to GM finacial benifit but likely not cost the racer anymore then he's spending now (except on the above issues depending on what gets worked out for those small issues like oil leaks and ETC.)

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

Unfortunately when G.M. gets there exchange program going the only ones that will benefit will be G.M. and the high dollar guys who can buy 5 or more motors and dyno them keeping the best ones. the 604 varies from 385 rear wheel H.P. for a very good one down to 350 at the wheels for the average one. blueprinting the poor engines brings them up to the 385 level.out of the 100 or so we have dynoed I have seen one at 385, probably 20 at 375 and the remainder 370 on down.the engine that made 385 new was rebuilt by my shop two weeks ago and the block deck was legal by .001 and the heads were illegal from G.M. by 2 c.c. if this engine had been protested it would have been thrown out because of the heads. G.M. blocks vary from 9.021 to 9.037 sometimes that much from side to side on the same block.
These are production line engines and will never be equal unless there blueprinted. Bill

[CSB]

How much does blueprinting cost?

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

How much does blueprinting cost?


604 complete rebuild and blueprint is $2600.00 including chassis dyno time for Free if your in the area. Bill

[billetbirdcage]

Bill, I have a question for you!

I'm trying to figure something out so bear with me.

Lets say I have a crate engine (under current system where you can rebuild it) and I broke a spring and tweeked a valve. If I wanted to just have the valve fixed as this engien only had a few laps on it. Would you do that and reseal the engine.

Would this be a couple hundred dallor deal (roughly) or would you have to go thru the entire engine??

I don't want to ask the rest of it, until you answer that part. Like I said I just trying to see something and I'll explain the rest after.

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

We have done that several times.if its only one valve then only one head will have the RM bolt.we keep careful records of what we do to each engine.Bill

[CrateRacers]

Anybody have any thoughts on GM stopping the sealing bolts availabilty after March? No more rebuilds or even simple repairs?


http://www.crateracers.proboards62.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1197950996

[billetbirdcage]

Bill, I guess what I was trying to figure out was how easy this could happen:

I should have said that this "engine" I have already had RM bolts in it, that may have made a difference to your response. I was trying to see if most rebuilders would just fix the problem or actually go thru and inspect that the entire engine was correct. Since the way I understand it (may not be correct) is that the last person the seals the engine is responsible for anything that is illegal.

I was seeing how possible it would be if I had brought a rebuilder (knowingly or not) a cheated engine to have a simple repair done, if it was likely that it could have that simple repair done without a them full inspection. If this happened that engine builder would be responsible for a cheated engine that did not cheat up. Also if I did not know it was cheated (say I bought it used) both me and the rebuilder are now open to sanctions and suspensions when we did not have anything to do with the cheating.

While I'm sure that a lot of the rebuilders are going to inspect the entire engine for cheating before they seal it back up, but how much time are you really going to spend and have to pass onto the customer to check everything. You know that some things are not going to be easy or quick to check for like a good acid port and cover up. If the things vary as much as you have seen on these engines are there even CC specs for the intake runners and things like that.

So is a simple repair on a engine with RM bolts going to basically cost close to a full rebuild since you willhave to send alot of time disassembling and checking things to make sure it is legal before you reseal the engine?

I don't have a rooster in this fight, i'm just curious! I'm also just as curious toi what will happen when an engine with factory seal bolts get inspected and doesnt match factory specs, like the heads you had that were 2cc small form the factory.

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

We ran into that exact problem this morning.A chassis builder bought a used 604 at "a great deal" it had RM bolts,the heads were off and the cam out.the engine was suppose to have only 200 laps on it. in this case the engine would need to come apart and be measured before we would seal it. his great deal just turned into a big expense.
In this case he would have been better off buying one of the new blueprinted 604 engines we have in stock for $6857.47 rather than ending up close to the same money in a short block that had unknown miles on it. Bill

[claybuster]

"I was seeing how possible it would be if I had brought a rebuilder (knowingly or not) a cheated engine to have a simple repair done, if it was likely that it could have that simple repair done without a them full inspection. If this happened that engine builder would be responsible for a cheated engine that did not cheat up.

Good point, Billet.