New guy with a few questions [Archive]

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Ride Or Die

11-13-2007, 10:56 AM

What size spring are most guys running on the 5th coil on a mastersbilt(2007)?Why can't an 8" shock be used for the 5th coil?If you had a non adjustable shock, say a 5 compression/4 rebound, but you needed a 4 compression/5 rebound, could you turn the shock upside down and use it that way? That's probably a stupid question because I have never seen a shock upside down on a car before.Thanks in advance.

bizkit

11-13-2007, 12:18 PM

8" shock would probably work, just need to see if it bottoms out...The shock deal...not sure you understand, but you can't turn it up side down, because the shock still works the same way, pushing in is compression and pulling it out is your rebound. You might could turn your car over and the shock would work *GRIN* just kidding, and aggravating a little sorry

Ride Or Die

11-13-2007, 12:27 PM

LOL, now that is funny, Thanks, K

bizkit

11-13-2007, 12:49 PM

Do I know you? Just wondering...Good Luck

MasterSbilt_Racer

11-13-2007, 12:55 PM

An 8" shock will probably not allow enough compression travel on a Masters

bizkit

11-13-2007, 01:01 PM

I put a canister on the top of the shock...You know the shock I'm talking about?

Anyways, it worked, and I figure is was close to being like a 8" koni or bilstein like he is probably talking about?

Oh yea, yes on a masters

pinionangle

11-13-2007, 01:10 PM

Your going to have to use a 7" shock. Anything bigger with a mastersbilt lift arm will bottom out.

I tried a Rebound adjustable PPm gas shock and it wouldnt work. It only allows about 5 inches of shaft play.

bizkit

11-13-2007, 02:46 PM

I used a C2P and it worked, but we weren't getting but 4.5" of travel on the shock..We had over 5.25" with the c2p though

claybuster

11-13-2007, 07:39 PM

So yall think that 5" of travel is OK? We were just about bottoming ours out, so I went and jacked with it for the "Dash" to set the line up this weekend and I screwed us all up.
Go figure!

billetbirdcage

11-13-2007, 08:43 PM

I know guys getting well over 5" with a 350 spring and out at 34" to 36", but they still complain no forward bite???? If you can compress a 350 over 5" at that length, how can the rear tires not be hooked up???? Go figure, their never happy and always want more!

That was open engines and spec tires, a limited or crate engine cars seems to like softer 5th coil springs to help with the tight in the middle and therefore may have more travel due to the softer spring.

claybuster

11-13-2007, 09:05 PM

They never complain about forward bite do they?? Yessir I stiffened it up and moved it back and the thing went around the corner like a pogo stick.
Live and Learn, just never ends.

pinionangle

11-14-2007, 09:03 AM

I've got a 350lbs spring on my crate car at 35" with spec tires and it moves a good 4" if not more. I've moved it out to 36" or so and it just dosnt go.

bizkit

11-14-2007, 09:14 AM

Damn, maybe I need to go back and look at this guys car...I know we were really hurting for forward drive, Heck we might of been bottoming the shock out?

Ride Or Die

11-14-2007, 11:12 AM

1 more question;what is the difference between running a 12" spring rather than a 14" spring in the rear. I see some people with 12's and then I see others with 14's and I have seen a couple with a 12 on 1 side and then a 14 on the other. It would seem to me that so long as you were not coil binding the spring then there would be no difference? Maybe the longer springs don't require the "take-up" springs?

pinionangle

11-14-2007, 01:24 PM

On the spring deal, a 14" spring is common on the left rear and a 12" on the right. I think the idea behind the 14" left is to keep the car on the spring longer as the car goes mechanical. This is for a spring behind setup.

billetbirdcage

11-14-2007, 04:33 PM

Pinion, Pinion, and Pinion:

Haven't you been paying attension (Grin)!

A longer spring WILL NOT stay loaded longer then a shorter spring of the same rate, period.

Take two springs one 10" 200# and a 14" 200# and load then with 600# both will compress 3" (or they are not truely a 200# spring). So if you lift that corner of the car 3" the coilover nut seperates from the spring. The only way you can make this different is to increase the indexing of the cage or use a softer rate.

Example" a 200# spring loaded 600# compresses 3" and a 100# spring loaded 600# compresses 6". So you would have to lift that corner of the car 3" to unload the spring on the 200# spring but 6" on the 100# spring.

Hiegth of the spring has NO EFFECT on the car, unless it coil binds from being to short and not having enough travel available in compression. As long as the spring is on a coilover or a slider, it has NO effect on the car.
If it is on a jacker then it will effect the car, that is bcause it is like moving the coilover mount up or down. The pivot point or the pressure point of the spring assembly is what effects the car. On a jack because the jack bolt is locked to the frame, installing a 4" longer spring and raising the jacker 4" is moving up the point at which the spring is pushing on the car.

However most springs are not identical, meaning if you take a 10" 200# spring and check it thru its rate and then a 14" 200# spring they likely will be similar, close, or way different.

Example: spring / rate gained in 1" of compression:
(Ficticious rates for discussion)

10" spring
1" 190
2" 195
3" 200
4" 200

14" spring
1" 180
2" 185
3" 195
4" 200

Thru 4" of compression the rate at 4" =
10 190+195+200+200= 785 / 4" = 196.25#

14" 180+185+190+200 = 755 / 4" = 188.75"

Obviously these spring will act different they average different rates at different times and over all average are almost 10# apart.

If you feel a difference between lengths of springs of the same rate that is likely why as it has NOTHING to do with length only rate.

Pinion, I just giving you a hard time, really more to explain that to the other that asked the question

LM23

11-14-2007, 04:48 PM

You beat me to it Billet. We use a 14" RR only to eliminate any possible coil bind issues due to the mud build up.

Ride Or Die

11-14-2007, 05:59 PM

Billet-I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, spring rates are measured and determined by the rate of resistence within the first inch. If that is the case then wouldn't that formula in the previous post be wrong? I guess the only way to really find out would be to buy a spring rate device to measure the rates.I love this site, I was just sent over here by a guy off of 4m, the tech info over here is far and away better than any other site I have been able to find. Thanks for all of the info. If anyone is close to the north GA area (I live in Marietta) then I may be looking for some help getting my car set-up and ready for the up coming season. We are new to late models and it's been really hard to find anyone that knows enough about them to help us get it set up and ready to put on the track.

billetbirdcage

11-14-2007, 06:12 PM

Every manufacturer has a different way to rate a spring, some do it off the first inch and other compress it 1" and use the next 1" to rate the spring.

Using the first inch for rating is usually low, as most spring will usually be less the first inch and become more stable or linier after you get past the first inch of compression. No spring is 100% linier that (I've found) just some are better then others.

This is why is can be a bad idea to mix spring brands. Meaning a afco 350 may be stiffer then a hypercoil 350 or vice versa. As long as you are dealing with the same brand spring, if you go up or down on rate you can be fairly sure that you did in fact to that (with out test).

Go to swiftsprings.com and read some of the info on there about lineir rates and see what they show as far as thiers verses others. Don't know if what they claim is true but it shows what I'm talking about on variables in rates during compression.

look on this page: http://swiftsprings.com/advantage.html and look at the linear chart down on the page.

Not saying their spring are all that, but some interesting info non the less.

billetbirdcage

11-14-2007, 06:16 PM

They have changed their website, the graph is fairly hard to read and they the lines are too close together now.

claybuster

11-14-2007, 07:05 PM

Pinion, I was with you all the way. . . . That is what we do, but BB slapped us down again.

billetbirdcage

11-14-2007, 07:17 PM

Use what ever spring you wish as long as you have enough travel before coil bind. The hieght of the spring isn't going to effect the car as long as your on coilover.

However the shorter and fewer coils a spring has usually means the spring will be more linear in rate. Also the length verses the diameter has an affect on spring boweage (that a word) and therefore affect rate also.

I was just pointing out that if you replace a spring with the same rate just longer or shorter you aren't going the keep the spring loaded any more.

bizkit

11-15-2007, 08:52 AM

pinionangle

11-15-2007, 05:34 PM

Now im confused...I always thought with the spring behind the longer the car set on the spring the more it HAD to help with traction.

Im in a hurry and didnt read all of your post but did you menthion in there about why we all run a longer left rear spring?

Thanks Bigbird for the slap down...I enjoy learning!

pinionangle

11-19-2007, 03:45 PM

Big Bird, RB? Someone?

2dumb2kwit

11-19-2007, 03:51 PM

How do you spell pla-see-bo?

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 03:52 PM

My point was unless you install a softer rate spring the spring will seperate of the adjuster nut the same place.

It is simple: say you are using a 12" 250# LR spring and with the car on the ground the spring measures 9" tall (in it's compressed mode at ride height). So the spring is compressed 4", so if the LR lifts 4" the spring will be off the adjster nut, Right?

The spring compressed 4" meaning the spring has (250# rate x 4" = 1000#) on it. Installing a longer (14" 250#) spring is still only going to compress 4". If it compresses more then it is softer then 250#.

You follow that so far!!!!

2dumb2kwit

11-19-2007, 04:01 PM

Keep goin' billet. I want to learn why guys use a longer lr spring. (I'll 'splain it to pinion, later!)

pinionangle

11-19-2007, 04:13 PM

I'm with ya big bird but the question still remains why do we use a taller spring?

Im a driver and could care less about springs shocks and x = 2.765 * 3/4" blah blah blah...

I just know what a good handeling car feels like and I seem to do a pretty decent job hearding one around a track. I just dont get all the dynamics. But im trying. Kinda

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 04:15 PM

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 04:19 PM

Who says we run a longer LR spring????

Generally you run a longer LR spring just to make sure it doesn't coil bind. With the softer rates we are using a 10" LR spring would be almost coil bound at ride hieght and if the car compressed on the LR at all the rate would go solid.

claybuster

11-19-2007, 04:26 PM

Pinion, dont know if it is right or wrong but I found a 14" 175lb. spring in our pile of garbage and it seems to be pretty decent. My theroy (what the h*!! I know) it is a compromise between the stacked deal and a ordinary 225 set-up.
Softer rate, longer spring to eliminate coil bind found that there isnt a need for a take-up spring with a 175.

pinionangle

11-19-2007, 04:29 PM

I get so frustated by this!

This is easy to understand but nobody gets it. There is NO ADVANTAGE to running a longer LR spring, PERIOD!!!!

There are three things that matters when it comes to the LR spring:

RATE, RATE, and RATE. Make that 4 things: RATE!!!!

Dang it Big Bird you know what....I’m frustrated too buddy... If all you "high tech" big dogs wouldn’t put shock covers over your shocks and springs then I wouldn’t go buying 14" tall springs!

Really all kidding aside, you shouldn’t get so frustrated.... Its not healthy.

Just think Billet....with your expert chassis knowledge and me being the next "supa" star of dirt we could go along way...

Although I doubt highly that my off kilter since of humor would go over well on those 600 mile long trips...

2dumb2kwit

11-19-2007, 04:38 PM

Although I doubt highly that my off kilter since of humor would go over well on those 600 mile long trips... Oh yeah.........like billet doesn't have a twisted sense of humor.

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 05:31 PM

Don't take this as me getting mad or anything like that! This just frustrates me as I seem to have to explain this one all the time as nobody seem to understand it.

As far as the stacked springs:

I was one of the first to do this back 0n Jan 12th of 2003, I had my reasons for it and still don't give that out to this day but it isn't for the reason you would think. The stacked springs is no different then a single spring of the same rate. Meaning is you stack a 250/400 = 153.3 rate you will get the same results as a single 153# spring. However nobody made a spring taller then 14" which can be borderline on coil bind if running high bar angles or high wedge. It still boils down to rate, rate and rate, hieght only come in to not coil bind the spring as well as life of the spring. Guys just get so caught up with this stacked spring deal, it's funny.

However a single long spring will bow easily (where the stacked has the floater plate to help eliminate some of the boweage) which can effect the over all rate at the coilover.

I used to make all my guys run a shock cover on the LR to hide (different then everyone else) my stacked deal. Alot run covers to protect the coated shafts on the M2's, not so much to hide anything. Alot has to do with mind games also. If we have some stuff covered up (may not be anything) and we are running good, guy get so preoccupied with trying to figure out what we have that they don't pay attension to what their car is doing or needs.

Hell, I covered up my car one night with covers just to mess with a friend. He asked why is the car covered you normally don't have the covers on? I said "no reason". 10 minutes later I see feet sticking out from under the rear cover of my car so I go over and it's him looking to see what I got. Then I hear him say "God D@mmit you F'ing piece of $hit!". I had written on the frame (Yellow) with a black marker : " You find it yet, Earl!" I new curiosity would get the best of him and he'd try to look.

For any one that still isn't following the longer spring doesn't stay on the adjuster nut any longer then a shorter spring:

Set you car up with a 10" LR spring, then jack up the car and let the rear end hang down and measure the gap on the nut to the spring. Say this is 3/4". Now replace the spring with the same rate but a 2" or 4" longer spring. You will have to turn the adjuster up 2" or 4" to keep the same LR bite. You can set it back on the scales to varify it is correct (may not be because spring all are different rate - somewhat) and then jack back up and remeasure the gap -- it will still be around that 3/4" if it isn't that is because you have to adjust the nut more or less then the 2" or 4" because the rate where not truely identical.

With that said: this is something that can be hard to swallow but it is the truth (sorry, sometimes I'm brutally honest):

Far to often people want to look for things they don't have, instead of working on thier program and driving skills. Back when I raced, I though I was a fairly good driver but after working with some top racers I have found that I was nowhere in the ballpark as far as driving talent. The races I won were because I out thought (set-up) them or technically had an advantage with the car. At times still get amazed at what some of these guys can do in a car. I know the exact set-up and the car shouldn't have been able to do that, that was all DRIVER! The driver doesn't get as much credit as they should, you still have to have a good car but a excellent driver can make a "OK" car look great.

OK, that is my monthly rant - back to the regularly sceduled program.

powerslide

11-19-2007, 06:09 PM

ahh billets not to bad on the 600mi trips as long as you keep him from talking about lr spring rates lol

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 06:11 PM

Coming from a guy that was asleep 2 minutes after hitting the road (GRIN)

powerslide

11-19-2007, 06:15 PM

u must have me confused with someone i cant sleep in the truck... it may appear i am asleep but i hear EVERYTHING

billetbirdcage

11-19-2007, 06:18 PM

You couldn't have been listening, you was too busy text messaging some girls (at least I hope they were girls). Everytime I looked back you were playing with the phone!

7mod

11-19-2007, 07:49 PM

so a 10" 250 is the same as a 14" 250....:P :Psorry, had to do it

2dumb2kwit

11-20-2007, 02:19 PM

If you really want to get billet rung-up, argue with him about what would happen if you turned on a flashlight, while traveling at the speed of light.LOL

claybuster

11-20-2007, 02:39 PM

If you really want to get billet rung-up, argue with him about what would happen if you turned on a flashlight, while traveling at the speed of light.LOL

I remember that. . .